Guidelines for Taking Up Modesty

My disciplines for this Lent are not modesty-related, but I've had several people approach me this year and last thinking about taking up some form of modesty for Lent. Although this is a little late for your Lenten practice, if you're considering taking up modesty next year or for another reason/season, maybe this will help.

So here we go: basic instructions for taking up modest dressing.
1) Do your research! And start with your own tradition. I know that sounds hypocritical coming from someone who chose to go outside their tradition, but I looked at mine first! It's just about getting to know your options. Many denominations of Christianity have rich traditions of Plain dress, like the Mennonites or the Quakers, and many other Christians have adopted these traditions. Many others have traditions of modesty, such as the Latter Day Saints (Mormons) or the Pentecostal Church and Christians from all walks of life consider head covering. For Muslims, obviously hijab is the main form of modesty, but hijab can mean many things to many people. Jews have tzniut, but that too can vary in what people consider to be modest and so you should check out all your options.
I also encourage (women as well as men) to look at the requirements for male modesty in religion. My Woman once said that the only modesty requirements she ever felt a real connection to were those for Muslim men-- covering naval to knees. For me, I find that I'm compelled to cover my head, but I identify more with why Jewish men cover their heads than why Christian, Muslim or Jewish women cover their heads. In the interest of equal devotion to God, many Reconstructionist or Reform Jewish women will cover their heads with kippahs like the men do.

2) If you are adopting someone else's tradition, be mindful of how you present yourself both to followers of that tradition and outsiders. For instance: is it a good idea to wear a hijab and a mini-skirt when you go out drinking? I don't have the answer there. I can tell you, though, that if the answer is yes, you're going to be explaining yourself to a lot of people.

3) Go shopping! I have to admit, I like this part. :) But it doesn't have to be expensive! If you're going tzniut, check out koshercasual.com, if you're going hijabi, check out alhannah.com. For anything, check out Etsy! And don't forget to check out your local Good Will or second-hand clothes store. But not Salvation Army, please.

4) Do not throw away your old clothes! Unless you have been debating this move for years and years and years, please do not throw away your old clothes. I have a couple of reasons for this. For starters, you never know when you might be able to incorporate your pre-modesty-modest clothes into your new modest get-up. Check out this hijabi mini-skirt idea. Secondly, at least for me, that throw-the-baby-out-with-the-bathwater attitude tends to mean that what I'm getting into is not actually a calling, but a fad. (Tarot cards in your teenage years, anyone?) In that regard, I think keeping your old clothes around gives you a way to ease back into your old life if it is a fad with as little drama as possible. Again, I'm not saying any one practice is always a fad, just that bandwagon-jumping is not modest and if you are looking to practice modesty, one should do as little bandwagon-jumping as possible.

Those are my thoughts for anyone considering a modest dressing path. Questions? Suggestions? I'd love to hear them!

A Wedding Dress Guide for the Modest Bride

I know I've abandoned this blog lately, but there's definitely a dearth of info for modest brides on the web, so I feel like this needs to be said.

I have finally wrapped up my wedding dress shopping, so I thought I'd include a post for anyone out there looking for modest wedding gowns. Be forewarned: it's ridiculous.

So let's start off with this: if you live in a community where your modesty standards are, if not the norm, pretty common, you can probably disregard this entire post. Mormons living in Utah? That's you. Tzniut women in Brooklyn? You too. The only exception is if you walk into your local modest wedding dress shops and find that they all sell the same kind of dress and you don't like it. (I feel like this a lot in tzniut stores, to be honest-- too much my-wedding-cake-ate-my-dress, not enough Grace Kelly.) Then, you should probably stick around.

First thing first, you could try your local modest retailers. Don't limit yourself to just your particular modesty standards. If you're tzniut, you won't look out of place in a hijabi wedding gown (minus the actual headpiece). By the same token, if you're tzniut and you try on a Temple-ready Mormon gown, it will be a lot easier to modify it to tzniut standards. In Chicago, I've found that there aren't a lot of modest wedding dress retailers. I actually ended up driving down to St. Louis to the wonderful Chatfield's to find a modest wedding gown store. (The dresses were beautiful and the service was absolutely wonderful, but they were ultimately not what I was looking for.)

If you find your perfect dress at a modest wedding store, yay!-- you're done. For the rest of us, we move on to the generic wedding retailer. Let me just get started by saying this is a total trip. Wedding dress shops are a totally different world where all the rules you learned about life in modern society go out the window. And not necessarily in a good way.

Now, as a rule, I would stick to small retailers, and here's why. Wedding gown stores are frequently packed to the brim with people. (When it's a small store, it could just be you and your small entourage-- when it's a big store it could be 20 other people and every member of their respective bridal parties.) And most of the assistants at wedding gown stores have lost every sense of modesty they ever had. It's just the nature of the business, I think. The last thing you want (and I speak from experience) is your bridal assistant throwing open the door of your dressing room to show your mother a dress you were wearing when you're as naked as the day you were born (or only slightly less so) and then refusing to close it while you get back in the dress-- while dozens of other brides and their families walk by.

So here's my fabulous guide to not having that happen to you.

• First, pick a small store that carries a designer who makes modest gowns or gowns that can be made modest. (Note: just because a store carries a designer doesn't mean they carry all their gowns, so if you have one you really want to see, ask about it on the phone before you make your appointment.)
• When you're making an appointment, mention your modesty requirements if you feel comfortable doing that. (Note: if you do this and they jump down your throat, you can cancel the appointment or you can say, "I know maybe none of your gowns meet this requirement right away, but I'd love to look at some gowns that would be easy to alter to fit my specifications." That usually calms people down.) Now would also be a good time to ask questions like how many brides have appointments at the store at once. A lot of smaller places only see one or two brides at a time and that makes it so much easier to be modest.
• Before you go to your appointment, get the right clothes. If you're Mormon, absolutely wear your garments-- since you have to cover them anyway, this covers everything you need the gown to cover and it gives you an extra layer of modesty while they're ripping gowns on and off of you faster than you can blink. If you're tzniut or hijabi and you don't have handy underwear that covers everything you expect the dress to cover, you have a couple of options. One, you could find said underwear. Two, you could do some combo of slip and t-shirt. This way, instead of being buck naked under the gown, you have another layer. I ended up borrowing a slip from my mother. The skirt was long enough that I felt reasonably covered and the neckline was as deep as I'd ever want my wedding dress neckline to be. Do remember that this ensemble shouldn't be too bulky.
• Once you get to the appointment, wearing whatever undergarments you've decided on, remind them of your requirements again. They may direct you to any modest gowns they already have. If they don't have any, they will likely ask you to pick out some samples of gowns you think would work. Go to town. Don't be afraid to ask if they think their seamstress could modify it and HOW. I can't stress that enough. If no one in the store can at least give you a vague idea of how to modify it, you don't want to even try.
• As you head to your dressing room, see if you feel comfortable with the arrangement. Often in small stores, you'll get a whole real room to yourself. You can always ask for something more private, but they won't always be able to accommodate.
• Once you get in the dressing room, you undress and the sales assistant helps you put the dress on. Some places will let other people help you with this (your mom or whomever you brought with you) but most won't. Before you tell me you don't need help getting dressed, let me tell you you're wrong. Everyone needs help getting a wedding dress on. Why? Because stores only carry samples in one (or maybe two, if you're very lucky) size-- it's usually what's called a "bridal 10" which fits a lot like a regular American 6 or 8 depending on the designer. If you don't wear a 6 or an 8 regularly, there will be a lot of tugging and pulling and clipping to make it look like it's supposed to look-- or even to get it to stay on. I've had the occasional gown fit perfectly, but most of the time I need anywhere from two to ten clips to keep it on.

I went through a whirlwind of stores and I have a couple quick recommendations near Chicago. First, House of Brides in Aurora, Illinois  has a decent selection of Mormon gowns and a vague appreciation for modesty. I've also heard wonderful things about Jasmine Galleria in Lombard, which does a kind of create-your-own-dress where you select a basic, strapless style and can add sleeves and necklines of your choice. (Check out their Temple Ready selection.) Ultimately, though, I didn't go with gowns from any of these places.

So... what to do when you've gone through all my above steps at a zillion stores and still can't find the gown? Or, alternatively, you don't have the budget for any of that? (Be aware though, Chatfield's is very reasonably as wedding gowns go-- more so even than David's Bridal or the like.) Well, then, on to the next battle.

• Check out antique stores and second-hand clothing stores. Vintage gowns are much more likely to be modest than modern gowns. They're also often much more reasonable.
• Now vintage stores may pose an additional problem-- where do you try on your dress? Most stores I've been to don't have a dedicated dressing room. All I can say for this is: wear something made of thin material that you might be able to slide under a dress, if at all possible.
• Also be aware of your vintage size. Your vintage size is often several sizes bigger than your current size. For example, I'm something like an 8 or 10 American. When I'm looking for vintage dresses, I look at dresses ranging anywhere from size 12 to size 16.
• Also remember that bigger is always better: if you find the perfect dress, but it's 2 sizes too big, buy it! Taking a dress in is easier and cheaper than letting one out. It also might give you extra material if you need to add to the neckline or sleeves.
• That brings me to an important point! If you're shopping for a modest wedding dress at vintage stores, those dresses will probably be harder to modify, because you won't be able to contact the designer to get more of the exact fabric. If you have a creative tailor, though, there are often fun ways around this. Just be aware when you go in.
• Also look online. While going online always carries a huge risk of not seeing what you're ordering beforehand, it also has some great options.
• You could order a custom gown from one of the wonderful sellers on Etsy.
• You could order from a department store or wedding boutique. (I ended up getting a Tadishi Shoji dress with long lace sleeves from Nordstrom.)
• You could also order from one of those cheap copycat retailers based in places like China. No word on whether this actually works out for people, though...

So that's how I did it, at least. And in the end, I ended up with a gorgeous gown that will only need to be tailored a little to meet my modesty standards. Good luck to you and happy shopping! Let me know if you have any suggestions to add!

Navigating Public Transportation in the City

I have lots of things I could post about and I probably should, but for the moment, here is a thought for you. Just FYI, I'm on Chicago public transportation at least twice a day and usually more than that, so I speak from experience.

If you are just a little tired of spooning with strangers on your morning commute, wear a hijab-looking headscarf. No Seriously. All other things being equal, when I'm wearing something that looks like a hijab, I am the last person anyone sits next to on the train. Except maybe the other girl in a hijab.

If, however, you are feeling chatty and want perfect strangers to strike up a conversation with you about intimate details of their life (which, by the way, never happens in the city-- people look at you funny if you say a cheerful 'hello'), then wear a bonnet. (Mine is a lovely kapp by Sowers of Hope, like the one in the picture.) Seriously, I could be wearing the same clothes otherwise, and this would happen. What does it say about the world that what I use to cover my head changes people's opinions of me so drastically?

Hijabi in France

So in light of my confession yesterday, I ended up going home and wearing the same outfit, but with my hijab over the top. I felt pretty, classy, modest and best of all... cool. (I mean that the air cooled me off, not that Justin Bieber would approve of my clothing choice.)

That feeling of finding the perfect clothes (which I get so rarely these days) evaporated after about 3 blocks. I was wandering around my hotel's quartier (neighborhood), doing some shopping and stopping in cafes. I was minding my own business. No one else was, it seemed.

As I stopped by jewelry stores and book stores run by Jewish men (I am, after all, in the Jewish quartier), I'd get distrusting looks as I stood in the window. The moment I crossed the threshold into their shop, I got outright glares. And followed. I don't know whether they expected me to plant a bomb or steal stuff or what! And this at just about every shop I went into, because, let's face it, why go into anyting besides jewelry and book stores? When I walked into stores that weren't Jewish-run, I got ignored. The shopkeepers would not greet me, although they greeted everyone else that walked in and out. Good thing I didn't want to buy anything because I would have had to jump up and down with money in my hand to get anyone to bat an eyelid at me.

I did get some headnods from women in hijabs, which made me smile, and even a headnod from a woman in a hijab-esq thing, wearing a hodgepodge of modest clothing-- she kinda looked like me actually: indefinably modest.

I wanted to wear a sign that said, "I'm Christian. I'm a feminist. I like my rights. I also like hijab." Or for the Jewish shops, maybe a sign that said, "Do your research. Hijab and tzniut are very similar!" Would that have made it better? I don't know. I felt like everyone was judging me-- and I think they were. It was totally isolating and, frankly, humiliating. I was embarrassed for me and for the French. This was a very touristy-area and there were people who noticed how these French shopkeepers were treating me. It was awkward for everyone involved. It can't have been good for business.

Interestingly, there was one exception to all this. And it made me hella proud. Near the end of my day, I stopped at a gay cafe. The waiter showed up almost the moment I sat down (which never happens in France, hijab or no) and took my order. It took him about 10 minutes to come back with my drink (not long, in France) after which he apologized profusely for being so slow (which he wasn't compared to everything else here). He was sweet, he checked on me frequently and he was prompt about everything. It was such a relief, because the afternoon in my hijab had been so incredibly draining!

Why did this one gay man treat me like a human being? Did I set his gaydar off? Did he recognize me as a fellow oppressed person? Is he just that nice to everyone? Whatever the reason, I hope he continues...

Confession

Ok, so I'm vacationing in France right now... which is awesome, but I had a little incident today.

I went to church this morning. I caught the metro to the American Cathedral in Paris. (Which smells like an Episcopal Church? What is that? There's a smell. Only in high church places, though... Do we all use the same wood polish or something?)

Anyway, caught the metro there in beautiful, appropriate kosher clothing. Loved the service. Decided to walk back. It was a long walk, but I thought I'd manage. Fail. I ended up walking the wrong direction. Which I only realized when I was practically directly under the Eiffel Tower. So I walked back to the American Cathedral and by that point I was so hungry and sweaty and tired that I caught the metro home.

I climbed up the 5 flights of stairs to my hotel room and decided to change into the lightest-weight clothing I could-- which turned out to be a mid-calf-length brown skirt and an Indian style blouse with 3/4-length sleeves and a lightweight brown scarf that I'd tied kerchief style. I left the hotel (after much moaning and groaning and flopping about). Two blocks down the road, I think, "Wow. This light-weight fabric is so awesome; I'm so much cooler already... Wait, did my blouse slip, is that why I'm showing too much collarbone? ... *tugs on shirt* Oh shit! I forgot to cover my collarbones."

Actually forgot. I just didn't look in the mirror on my way out of the room.

Well, so there in the middle of the street, I whipped my scarf off my head and folded it more hijab style. Now my collarbones are covered but I definitely wasn't planning on wearing anything remotely resembling a hijab this soon. It makes me nervous in this countrty-- even though there are definitely plenty of women wearing them.

France's Niqab Ban and Me

So, I am joyously heading to France tomorrow to simultaneously reward myself for finishing my thesis and celebrate the last time I won't feel guilty about paying for something extravagent for a while because I am still a student until the end of this month.

Hijab, from alhannah.com.

Interestingly, France is very anti religious head coverings. Mostly Muslim ones, but in order not to be discriminatory, they have to be anti all of them. They banned the hijab in public schools in 2004. (Again, ostensibly they banned all large religious symbols, but it boiled down to banning the hijab.) This used to bother me --a lot-- but now it really touches close to home because I wear them on a regular basis. It irks me, but it is only in public schools... I haven't decided yet whether I shall wear a hijab in France or not.

Now, as of the 11th of April, 2011, the French are banning the niqab. Not in public schools. Everywhere. Now, I don't wear niqabs and have no interest in doing so. I mean, come on, turtlenecks make me claustrophobic-- I have no illusions about how trapped a niqab would make me feel. On the other hand-- the attachment I've developed towards covering my head in such a short time makes me very empathetic to women who might have developed a similar attachment for covering their face. Especially for people who grew up wearing the hijab or niqab. If you're with me on the hijab, but not on the niqab, let me offer an example.

Niqab, from alhannah.com.

I grew up in a meat-eating household. Nearly every meal we ate for my entire childhood had meat in it. I was always a little averse to meat, but was never "fanatical" enough to go vegetarian while living with my parents. Prompted by health reasons, I eventually stopped eating meat. To me, it's a small but important sacrifice to make for a variety of reasons. I've learned to make some wonderful meals that are vegetarian. Even my solidly ominvorous family likes some of my meals.

I have a friend, though, who grew up vegetarian. She's never eaten meat at all as far as I know and all her life her family cooked wonderful vegetarian things. Also prompted by health reasons, she became vegan. For her, it was a small sacrifice. For me, it would be an almost incomprehensible one. I just can't imagine my life without milk or cheese. Maybe it's a silly comparison, but that's how I look at the whole hijab/niqab thing. Wearing hijab for me is a big difference (from, say, no head covering), but I love it. I could see how forsomeone who had grown up wearing hijab, the niqab would be appealing and just another small step in their relationship with God.

So, here's a questions. For those of you who wear a head covering or have considered it, how do you feel about France's ban? (Definitely google it if you haven't heard of it before!)

I've always been offensive, just by being myself.

It's true. If I did everything "by the book" (or "the Book"), I'd still offend a majority of the world's population, just by how I feel about women. (Shall I get in to the fact that it is actually impossible to do everything the Bible says literally? ...No, I shan't.)

Simply "having homosexual tendencies" makes me ineligible to teach Sunday School in many churches.

The loving, monogamous relationship I have with my Woman has made mothers pull their children away from us in the street. (Not knocking polygamy/polyamory-- that's simply a fight I'm not going into right now.)

Being Christian means 9 out of 10 gay people I meet assume I'm closeted and self-hating. Worse! They'll assume one or the other is a "phase"-- where have I heard that before???

And while I'm on other queer people! Some of the people I find I offend the most are other queer people who are less affectionate than my Woman and I are in church. Like, they feel the need to act like heteros so why don't my Woman and I?

So I can't get around being offensive and my choice was to minimize my offensiveness and not "act gay" --whatever that means-- or be myself and risk offending people.

My point is, I guess I'm going to have to do that here.

The modesty thing is constantly changing the way I look at clothing (more on that in another post), but I don't think I will continue it (at least in quite this way) in perpetuity. Head covering, on the other hand, I really feel called to, if that makes sense. It's not something we typically talk about having a calling for in the Episcopal Church, but I really just feel like it should have been there all along.

Maybe that's offensive. Or is it only offensive if I wear hijab? To that end-- here we go.

First off, I have yet to find a source anywhere where a Muslim person says they would be offended by a non-Muslim wearing a hijab. Now, I'm sure some Muslim somewhere is probably offended, but obviously it is not a majority. Not including the ones Megan found in my earlier post, here's what I found in my first two or three pages of googling.

http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/showthread.php?7474-Can-a-non-muslim-wear-the-hijab
http://ilovehishmatheblog.blogspot.com/2009/06/juma-thoughts-non-muslims-wearing-hijab.html
http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?3202-non-muslims-wearing-Hijab
http://qa.sunnipath.com/issue_view.asp?HD=1&ID=4676&CATE=115
http://en.allexperts.com/q/Islam-947/Non-muslim-wearing-hijab.htm
http://www.islamconcepts.com/2009/09/28/non-muslim-women-wear-hijab-talking-its-benefits/
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/50194-non-muslim-wearing-hijab.html

And then there's this facebook group that is specifically for non-Muslim hijabis.

And, check out my blogroll on the right hand side of the page. Cover(ed) Girl is by Heather, a Christian hijabi who was formerly a niqabi. Little Steps Home is written by Amber, who is an Orthodox Christian who covers, as far as I can tell, sometimes with a hijab.

Even with all that, I just feel comfortable in a hijab-- perhaps it's because I prefer it when my ears are covered and I like having something that tucks into my shirt-- it just makes the whole thing feel more "right" for me.

And when I lived in Senegal, it was encouraged. Honestly, I fought it tooth-and-nail there because it felt like it was saying they would only treat me respectfully if I wore it. And frankly, I resent that, but near the end of my time in Senegal I got into the hijab more. (As a note: I covered my hair there a lot, because it was easier to do it and not look abnormal.) So maybe that let it in as an option for me? I don't know.

I might also add that there a finite number of ways one can cover one's head. At some point, I'm going to step on somebody's toes.

All I know is: I feel called to cover. I will continue doing so unless and until I feel called to stop or it gets too difficult to manage. As for the hijab, I will try to be culturally sensitive, but I don't think I'm upsetting hijabis. I imagine a lot of them feel called to the hijab and so understand what it's like trying to argue with a call.

I do appreciate your input; after all, I asked for it. It is totally enlightening and feel free to continue commenting, but in the end, it's my submission to God and it's my call.

Please Raise Your Hand If I'm Offending You

Yes, that's what I'm asking. And I do want to know.
There are a number of ways to look at this.


Is practicing tzniut for Lent offensive to Jews? Just Orthodox Jews? Just Orthodox Jewish women?
Is practicing tzniut for Lent offensive to Christians? Just Christians who follow Christian modesty rules? If so, which kinds? All of them?
Is wearing a hijab offensive to all Muslims? Muslim women?
Is wearing a hijab offensive to Christians?

Ways people besides me might look at this: (let me know if I've missed any)

1) Closer to the One True Truth
If you believe that yours is the one true truth (ie. that Islam and nothing else is right or that Orthodox Judaism and nothing else is right) then surely it is better for me to get one thing right than nothing right. This was a prominent belief in Senegal. *Sidy* or whomever believes that Islam is the one true truth. He wishes the whole world was Muslim. He would love it if I, personally, converted to Islam. One day, I show up wearing a hijab. *Sidy* grins. He knows I'm not Muslim, because maybe he saw me at the bar the other night or whatever, but he'll applaud me, saying it's better that I do one thing right than nothing.

2) Appropriating Someone's Culture
If you believe that tzniut (or Orthodox Judaism or hijab or Islam) is a cultural thing, then obviously, taking things from it when I don't fully understand it would be hugely offensive and also awkward for me. It'd be like the people walking around with the giant Chinese word for "joy" on their back. It may or may not be Chinese and it may or may not mean "joy" but the fact that I'm walking around without knowing that would be offensive to Chinese-speaking people and awkward for me (even though I don't know it).

3) Denying My Own Religion
If you believe a) that Christianity has a mandate to not follow tzniut rules or hijab or what-have-you or b) that one cannot use aspects of another faith to deepen one's own faith-- that this amounts to a denial of the faith, then I could see some Christians being offended at my claim to be Christian. Check out this little upheaval for more ideas.

4) Truth in Advertising
This would require that you believed 2 things: 1) that practicing modesty or headcovering or whatever advertises something besides modesty or headcovering (ie. that wearing a hijab advertises being a Muslim) and 2) that since it advertises this, it must be inherently wrong to practice this if you are also advertising behaviors that you believe inconsistent with it (ie. it is wrong to drink alcohol in a hijab whether or not one is Muslim).

5) Enriching My Spiritual Practice
I'm learning about other people's religions and deepening my own in the process. To me, it seems to provide me with an opportunity (as a nerdy, overly fashion-conscious, religious college student) to combine my nerdiness (the research) my fashion issues (the clothes) and my religion (the prayer) into one Lenten discipline.

6) What About Christian Modesty?
This would mean that because my Lenten discipline uses tzniut guidlines or because I wear a hijab (occasionally), I've turned up my nose at Christian modesty practices-- such as going by Plain or Mormon standards or something like that.

7) You Can't be a Lesbian and Religious! Especially Not Christian/Jewish/Muslim/Zoroastrian!
This means assuming that queer people can't be in XYZ religion. Then, you assume that my *being* Christian or using Jewish standards to define modesty or wearing a hijab is offensive to someone, somewhere because I'm queer and they don't let queer people in that club. With all of that, you're endorsing that they have a right to be offended by my sexual orientation, which is legitimizing homophobia.

Modesty Stereotypes

So as a reward for myself, sometime last week I bought myself a hijab from alhannah.com. It is beautiful! I wore it with this cute v-neck sweater I have that has pretty detail around the neckline. That way, I could tuck the hijab into my sweater neckline and still be covering my collarbones.

This was Friday, I think, and my Woman and I decided we wanted to go out to our local gay bar, the Aut. Well, so we walked there holding hands (which is the usual for us, but one of us is not typically wearing a hijab) and didn't seem to cause any traffic accidents. Yay! Better yet, when we got to the Aut, no one batted an eyelid. Mind you, we're there a lot. So perhaps they just know I'm weird and it doesn't cause any confusion any more? :)

The next day, we went out to breakfast. And yes, I was wearing the same outfit-- whoever knew I'd be doing the walk of shame in a hijab! Anyway, we go out to eat at Sava's, which has wonderful food, but we got the funniest stares the whole time! Clearly, we were astounding a few people-- what looked like a conservative Muslim woman kissing another woman! Quelle choque!

It seems people think that a hijab is much like the proverbial lesbian toaster. Guys, you can buys hijabs online for like $10... or just learn to fold a scarf like one if  you already have scarves. There's no secret handshake you have to learn, I promise.